The Day the music died

[oily slick]

there used to be photo on here of it. BAMBOO, NOW! NOW!

too late. he's strong again.

[LessThanZero]

I was only 4 months old when this happened, and I'm sure I cried.

I was at the gym the day that George died. They have a lot of televisions that you can only hear through headsets on the exercise equipment, but I looked up and one tv was showing clips of George. I knew instantly.

That really took the wind out of my sails for a day or two, even though we all knew it was going to happen soon.

[pip_52]

I remember when George died cause I was at school. I probably would have cried if I hadnt been in the cafeteria at the time.

[spooky girlfriend]

I remember when George died because it was just days before Joel's dad died of lung cancer. I remember thinking how sad it was that, at their ages, half of the Beatles were already gone and that they should have lived longer.

[bambooneedle]

I don't know what you want noise.....

But I didn't realize we were pissing on each other. This wasn't about you, but about your Yoko thing as she's long been such an easy target for tired humour based on ignorance. If I was going to say you were anti-asian I'd tell you straight. But be real for fuck's sake; if you can't take the heat for anti-asian or whatever other basically tired and ignorant thing Yoko jokes may embody, without then acting like a boorish crybaby, don't bother making em.

[noiseradio]

Bamboo,

I'll be happy to take the heat for anything I actually said. And what I want is not to do this very thing. I happen to think Yoko Ono is grossly overrated as an artist, and the way she has treated Julian Lennon in the years since John's death are pretty deplorable. Her influence on John's life and music was, in my estimation, less than valuable. One listen to Two Virgins is more than enough. If Chapman had shot her instead of Lennon, it would still have been tragic. But I don't think the world would mourn her loss the way it mourns John's. The joke, which I still think is pretty funny, is based on Leary's (and apparantly Hicks') similar frustrations. I don't think it makes me a boorish crybaby to point out that you twisted my words around to make it seem like I said or implied something that I did not. But whatever. I was trying to extend an olive branch. I guess I still am.

[BlueChair]

Yoko should not be put in front of a microphone. The Two Virgins and other experimental albums are nothing more than noise. When I listen to Double Fantasy or Milk & Honey, I tend to skip the Yoko tracks (though I do like "Every Man Has A Woman" and "Walking On Thin Ice"). Yoko should have treated Julian better, financially. But then again, so should have John. He spent much of the 70's focusing on Yoko and Sean, and very little on Julian.

With that said, you cannot undermine Yoko's influence on John's life and music. Any love song John wrote between 1968 and 1980 (i.e. some of the best songs ever written by anyone) were inspired by Yoko, even if she is not named in the particular song. Hell, she even inspired a lot of his non-love songs. She taught him a lot about life. She boosted his interest in human and civil rights and peace activism. When you read any of John's interviews of that period, he is a much smarter, more positive John Lennon than the drug-induced Lennon of the 60's.

I recommend the great LENNON biography by Ray Coleman.

Seriously though, it is unfair to pass judgements on Yoko as a wife, mother, or inspiration to John, whether you like her or not. As sad as the world was when John died. She was the #1 victim of that event. She saw her husband, who she loved dearly, get shot to death. I doubt a night goes by where she doesn't think about that event.

[noiseradio]

I think you're quite right about the tragedy for her. And I also agree that Lennon was a bastard for treating Julian badly as well. In My life is the best love song ever. That was pre-Yoko, right? So he had it in him before meeting her. I'm sure she was a good influence on some things. And she may have been a good wife and mother, even if she was a bad stepmother. I just think that John Lennon was exception with or without Yoko. As great as many of his songs were solo, none of the four have touched what the Beatles did as individuals.

[HungupStrungup]

John could have been a better father to Julian. That would have made him a better and probably happier person.

But despite that, he was a better person with Yoko than he was without her. He could be a jerk. During the LA Pussy Cats period, hanging out with Nillsson while separated from Yoko, he was a sloppy drunk and quite an asshole at times.

Whether he was a better artist is open to debate, since I love the early and mid-Beatles Lennon just as much. But while with her he made some incredibly fantistic music: "Imagine," "Come Together," "Cold Turkey" and "Instant Karma" were career highlights for John but would be an entire and quite satisfactory career for most mortals.

He loved her, and she made him happy. She had several miscarriages before Sean came along (John joked that she was 70 when Sean was born, but I think it was actually 46), and I don't think he'd have given up those five or so years of being a loving, caregiving father for anything. Without Yoko, he never would have become that man. No one could have taken away his status as a great artist and musician, but he was a better man after Yoko than he was before her.

I too tend to avoid her songs except for "Walking on Thin Ice," and I find much of her art to be self-important and lacking in merit. Albums like Life with the Lions should never have been made, but she didn't break up the Beatles, and on everything else I cut her a lot of slack.

[bambooneedle]

Bamboo,

I'll be happy to take the heat for anything I actually said. And what I want is not to do this very thing. I happen to think Yoko Ono is grossly overrated as an artist, and the way she has treated Julian Lennon in the years since John's death are pretty deplorable. Her influence on John's life and music was, in my estimation, less than valuable. One listen to Two Virgins is more than enough. If Chapman had shot her instead of Lennon, it would still have been tragic. But I don't think the world would mourn her loss the way it mourns John's.

You know that none of that has anything to do with the lowest common denominator appeal of the Yoko joke, of why people hate her (I know she isn't as liked as John, but thanks for informing me of that fact)... you knew before I even said anything. But either you think the people here are too dumb to know that, or that they don't or otherwise do and would somehow be impressed with you pretending you don't. Or you're not pretending, but just like believing bullshit when it seems convenient.

As if her influence on John's life and music was not valuable... what an absurdly moronic statement to make. I hope you were on drugs when you made it.

The joke, which I still think is pretty funny, is based on Leary's (and apparantly Hicks') similar frustrations.

Oh, now I get it -- at the core of the joke is the shared frustration about how crap an artist she is and about the welfare of Julian Lennon, so too bad that she wasn't shot. Ha ha, now I see what it was that resonated with you and keeps driving you into convulsions. How the hell did I miss it !? Btw, just a minor detail: it was about her not being shot, not her instead of JL...

I don't think it makes me a boorish crybaby to point out that you twisted my words around to make it seem like I said or implied something that I did not. But whatever.

What I'd said earlier was about the joke, and have since indicated that. I didn't say you were in identification with its nature, just that it sucked. But why do you keep going on about that, unless perhaps you are? The acting like a boorish crybaby bit was for the other post when you brought up the private matter as if it was something worthy of my reprehension, but you didn't remember about that.

I was trying to extend an olive branch. I guess I still am.

No need for such obsequious formalities, just please stop being such a crap artist.

[noiseradio]

So...that's no to the olive branch, then?

But either you think the people here are too dumb to know that, or that they don't or otherwise do and would somehow be impressed with you pretending you don't. Or you're not pretending, but just like believing bullshit when it seems convenient.

I don't think people here are dumb, but perhaps I am. I have no idea what those two sentences are supposed to mean.

As if her influence on John's life and music was not valuable... what an absurdly moronic statement to make. I hope you were on drugs when you made it.

If someone disagrees with you, calling them a moron is the surest way to convince them. Hungup and Blue Chair both made compelling arguments for me to reconsider my statement about her influence on John. I happen to still think he was artistically stronger with the Beatles than without and that my favorite of his songs were pre-Yoko songs. I'm not a moron for not caring very much for his solo work, which I honestly don't. (And I've never had a single illegal drug in my life). Like all the Beatles, John's solo work is marked by a couple a really strong records, and several spotty ones. You evidently disagree. Groovy. He may have been happier in interviews and seemed more at peace with himself after Yoko. But I think the way he treated his son was deplorable. And I think she shares that blame. His shortcomings as a father far outweigh for me than his triumphs as an artist. And Yoko has carried on treating Julian like crap. I would call that influence less than valuable. Oh, wait. I already did that.

Btw, just a minor detail: it was about her not being shot, not her instead of JL...

You're right. That is a minor detail.

What I'd said earlier was about the joke, and have since indicated that. I didn't say you were in identification with its nature, just that it sucked. But why do you keep going on about that, unless perhaps you are?

Actually, in addition to saying you thought the joke sucked, you called me ignorant (recently upgraded to moronic. Yay.) And you (it seemed at the time) were basically accusing me of some sort of anti-Japanese sentiment. You later said I missed the point on that. Must have. At any rate, you took some shots at me while you took shots at the joke. I responded.

The acting like a boorish crybaby bit was for the other post when you brought up the private matter as if it was something worthy of my reprehension, but you didn't remember about that.

I did not understand where the boorish crybaby comment was directed. I need to apologize for poor communication here. I wasn't trying to blame you for the cd trade not going through. I was trying to lighten the mood a bit with something I thought you would think was funny. We had agreed to trade some music, and neither of us followed through on it. If there was blame implied in my comment, it was meant for both of us. All I meant was that I preferred our relationship when the worst thing we had done to offend each other was not trade music. So I'm sorry it was taken another way. I did not mean to imply that you were worthy of reprehension in that situation at all. Mea culpa.

No need for such obsequious formalities, just please stop being such a crap artist.

It wasn't an obsequious formality. It was a genuine attempt to stop arguing with you and to start being nice. I'm not being a crap artist. I'm explaining myself and giving my opinions. In this thread, I have been misunderstood by you several times, and I'm sure that's my fault. I don't wish to continue sniping with each other, here or elsewhere. Rather than look for more reasons to take shots at me, let's just drop the matter. I only made the joke in the first place to add a bit of absurd humor to an increasingly depressing thread. It was humor you didn't appreciate, and I'm sorry if it offended you or anyone else. I take the joke back. Now, can we move on?