Please Help!

This is for all non-EC or peripheral-EC topics. We all know how much we love talking about 'The Man' but sometimes we have other interests.
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LessThanZero
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Please Help!

Post by LessThanZero »

This is a sticky subject.

I have a giant paper due in 9 days. And I need to get as many people's opinions on this topic as possible for the paper. I already know most of you don't want to talk about this, but if you'll indulge me, I'll buy you dinner.
My topic is, gulp, abortion.

If you would, could you please post everything you can on how you feel about abortion. What it is to you, why you feel a certain way. Facts, Faith, Fictions....anything you could say. And please don't say things like: "I totally agree with Spooky", even if you do, because I need to get as many opinions as possible. Even if your opinion only differs by one little comma.

I've really come to appreciate so many of your opinions and writing styles. I've grown quite attached to you people...not in a creepy zebras@#@# way, but maybe in an admiring tag-a-long little brother type way. :D

I'll leave it sticky for a couple days so maybe I'll get 200 different opinions.... yes it's naive, but I would certainly get a 4.0. :D

Thank you so much!

Discuss! :D
Last edited by LessThanZero on Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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bambooneedle
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Post by bambooneedle »

Is the requirement any more specific than just 'about abortion'?
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Post by laughingcrow »

I think the choice should be available to women, but it should be considered a last resort rather than something akin to 'the pill'. I also think that men should get a lot consideration in it, as a woman can abort your child without you even knowing she was pregant.

I have seen a lot of those horrible ultrasound videos where you see the foetus being destroyed, and it certainly makes you realise that it is a human life you are taking, especially when you think how many premature babies survive nowadays that were born within the legal abortion period.
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so lacklustre
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Post by so lacklustre »

Abortion is preferable to unwanted, unloved children. Abortion is preferable to creating more poverty. Abortion is preferable to the suffering and/or life threat to the mother. Abortion is preferable to creating a child who would not enjoy life. Abortion should not be on demand. Abortion should be available.
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Misha
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Post by Misha »

Ok, get a chair...

1. It shouldn't even be subject for consideration of making it illegal until there is a place for each and every one of those embryos/children. We have foster homes, in every country, and in America at least the hoops you have to jump through to adopt are astounding. I have close friends who adopted a child. They spent over $ 25,000.00 to do it. This was an uncontested regular adoption. Most people don't qualify to adopt, so we end up with thousands of children growing up in "the system" which does nothing for them, and destroys their emotional health. Ok, enough about that one area....

2. Abortion is only wrong if you define life by your religious/scientific beliefs. So, it could be right for one and wrong for another. That leads us back to choice. The only reason to take away the choice for abortion is that you believe that it is a life and it is your opinion that the person that wants one doesn't have a clue/morals as to what they are doing.

3. Many women make mistakes. Just like men, except that they potentially have to carry that mistake around. It may sound plain, but if a woman doesn't want to carry a child, and you force her to, you are putting her in a "prison sentence" of sorts, in the way that she will more than likely be ill, she will have damage to her body-even if all goes perfectly, she will be forced to endure large mutant junkie amounts of pain, and then she can adopt it out, and or raise it. More than likely, a woman that wants an abortion in the first place is probably not going to take care of her health, the fetus as it develops will be compromised, and then if the child is not white (extremely sad but true) and it is given up it will more than likely sit in foster care waiting to become a statistic.

4. If the kid comes out with damage from having a crappy mom while it was in the uterus, and then is given up, the kid will sit in the foster system until it is passed off to the state system. The scariest part of mandatory birth is that embryos that are defective (again, sad but true) will have to be born. Then that kid will be in the state system drooling on the floor with no quality of life whatsoever.

Now, many people would take a kid, provided they could legally, if someone didn't want it, but the red tape is ASTOUNDING. And, people who tend to give up their kids tend to be not the best of our society, so when they sober up, or get clean, or decide to get away from Mr. Abusive, they tend to go look for their kids and try to get them back. While they may not be successful, they usually have Legal Aid and the person that adopted doesn't, so the adopters get to blow the rest of the money they have left on lawyers fees to fight off the birth mother/father. This was a potential case with my friend's kid, as the mother was on vodka her entire pregnancy and then sobered up, got back together with the man and wanted the kid back....luckily it was short lived and she went right back to the bottle. (Sad but true).

I have a couple of friends who have had abortions, and they don't regret them. They feel that it was the right decision for the time.

I took one friend in for the proceedure. It was horrible, she was 19, and we had to go through a protest line of people screaming at us, then we went inside and they tried many times, three that I can remember, talking to her about it....they had options, she could live in a shelter, she could go to a group home, she could adopt it out, they weren't pushy, but they wanted to make sure she had considered her options. She did it, and she didn't regret it last I talked to her, which was years ago.

I have another friend that used it as birth control years ago which I thought was totally pathetic. She probably can't have kids, but still doesn't want them.

I have had friends that have had miscarriages that are devastated by the loss of life.

Me? I think it is a choice that needs to be made by the person that wants it. They will have to live with their decision. If we start making laws based on what everyone thought of everything, we would all not be able to survive, as breathing would surely be on someone's hit list. All that said, I don't think I could do it myself.

I'm sure the procedure is unpleasant to the embryo, actually horrible, that would be the point to stop the life. Unfortuanely, scientifically, an embryo is a parasite---an organism that lives off of another. Some women take this as an unwanted invasion. Sure, they could do something about it prior to this invasion, but they didn't. So, unless we want to pass out time machines we can't take back that they are pregnant.

I know that some men have a vested interest in the pregnancy of a woman, and some have sued to get her to carry it to term, but so far they have lost. I feel bad for the men, but if they are so eager to have a child or keep a "child" that is in someone else, they should beware who they impregnate.

Wow!!!! Bet you couldn't tell I have been really outspoken about this for years..???

Good luck on your paper....and on reading long-winded crap from people like me!!

:wink:
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LessThanZero
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Post by LessThanZero »

MISHA, how generous of you to write my paper for me!!! :D

This is such a sensitive issue, and I thank you all so much for helping me. Please PM me if you have input you don't need shared in the Annex.

What a great help you are! Bless you!

10 pages is a cinch with friends like you!

OH, and Bamboo that's as specific as I need. ANYTHING, ANYTHOUGHTS you have on this is perfect. poetry, poohatry, anything.

Thank you friends!
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A rope leash
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Men rule

Post by A rope leash »

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A rope leash
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Please leave me out of this...

Post by A rope leash »

When I was through with Reno, I brought the old Dodge back down to Suisun. My dead wife had managed to get pregnant.

I was completely doubtful from the onset. She was pretty sure that the baby was not mine, and I was extremely confident in my assertion that no one who was in such a drunken state had any business being pregnant, much less raising a child.

I suggested abortion. I swear it was not because it might not be my seed. She was just completely addicted to alcohol. It's an awful thing for a man to suggest such a thing, and to this day I curse myself for being so weak.

What I didn't know was that she had already had two previous abortions, and was suffering terrible emotional pressure because of it. She said that if she did it again, God would not forgive her. My life with her was Hell, IT IS HELL TO LOVE AN ALCOHOLIC! I did not think it was right that a child should have to suffer it.

She managed to cut back some on the booze while she was pregnant. Elvis came to Berkeley, and I took her down to the Greek Theater to see him. She was about eight months in. She enjoyed the concert very much, and we managed to get down close to the stage for a while. It was the Spike tour, I suppose.

Well, I was really on dogfood, and I was always invited to hide away, so I did. A couple of days before Christmas, she called me, and sounded very calm.

"Guess what, I had a baby...".

"Wha?"

"...and I named her Allison."

...and Allison is a very sweet child.

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Post by noiseradio »

Life is sacred. And to take a life is profane. It should only be done if there is no other choice. And there is almost always another choice. I'm not strictly talking about abortion, here. More and more, I find myself at odds with capital punishment, euthenasia, the possibility of a military draft--really any policy in which a person chooses whether another person gets to live or die. I recognize that there are extreme circumstances that may neccessitate flexibility. The execution of Timothy McVeigh comes to mind, as do the executions of Nazi war criminals. So too if an expectant mother was placed in a situation where her life was in jeopardy from the pregnancy. And there are several others. But these situations should be exceedingly rare. I have two children, and they are more than precious to me. I cannot imagine a situation in which my wife or I would have the right to decide if they should be allowed to live or not. It is not ours to say. I am confident that she would agree with me on that.
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Post by ice nine »

Speaking as a single man, I think that us men do not have the right to tell women what they can and cannot do, so they should just stay out of the conflict. I realize when you are involved in a relationship with your wife or girlfriend my idea of 'staying out of it' is naivé.
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Post by bambooneedle »

LTZ, have a look at this link. There's a good bibliography with excerpts of a range of perspectives, as well as some info about key historical legal cases and the like. It seems to give a good overview on the key issues.

http://pong.telerama.com/~jdehullu/
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Post by miss buenos aires »

I am completely pro-choice. I believe that laws restricting a woman's access to abortion are aiming at an infantilization of women, and a view of women as walking wombs. Cases like the one (I think it was in Florida) where the state wanted to appoint a separate guardian for the fetus of a mentally retarded pregnant woman give me the chills. I don't believe that a fetus has an independent life of its own, or that it has a right to that life. I respect noiseradio's viewpoint, that all human life is sacred, and snuffing it out shouldn't be anyone else's decision, and I understand how people could feel that way. Here's the pro-life position, perceived by many to be "middle of the road," that I find morally incoherent and indefensible: "Abortion should be illegal, except in cases of rape and incest." To me, that argument undermines the "all human life is sacred" argument, and betrays what parts of this debate are really about: female sexuality. If all human life is sacred, are fetuses conceived in violence somehow less sacred? Because it's not the woman's "fault" that she got pregnant? There's the insinuation that, unless she was raped, a woman with an unplanned pregnancy got was coming to her, and her rights to her body are somehow nullified by the "right to life" of the fetus inside her.

I have friends and family members who've gotten abortions, and everyone I've talked to about it knows it was the right choice for her, and feels no regret. My mother got an abortion before Roe v. Wade, and told me about what it was like to try and find a doctor, and how sleazy and seedy it all was, not to mention dangerous. When I think about what my mother's life would have been like had she carried that child to term...

I've been fortunate enough to not get pregnant (it doesn't hurt that I'm on the Pill and use condoms, but shit happens sometimes), but if I did, I'd have no qualms about getting an abortion. I want babies, but when I'm ready for them and can be the mother they deserve.
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Post by Lipstick »

What I know is that I heard my son's heartbeat when I was only 6 weeks pregnant, and saw the flickering of that heart beating amidst a swirl of black and white specks. He was alive, his nervous system was developing, his mind forming. He was already a living human, and nothing else.

I don't believe in "science" that is manipulated to support political views.

Of course he would not have survived outside the womb. He was not supposed to. I can't survive outside the womb of this planet. I am in fact a parasite, sucking in air and water and diet coke all day long.

I guess if I were in charge of the world, I would want abortion to be highly restricted. If life is to be the highest priority, then clearly a woman whose life is in danger should be allowed a well informed choice about her pregnancy.

(And people do not equal chickens.)

And the death penalty is, in my opinion, a completely different issue, but since people always want to drag it into the abortion debate, here's my view on that: I would much rather support the scumbags on death row indefintely in prison than have the huge numbers of abortions that are going on in this country right now.

I know there are specific situations where an abortion is a humane and reasonalbe choice. The vast majority of abortions are for the purpose of birth control, however. Not the sob-horror-story.

I guess we've all got example stories to support our cases. Like my friend who had to abort twins because she got breast cancer. The doctors did not give her a choice, and she hurts for the children she did not get to see. And my friend who has a severly handicapped child and spends 5 days out of 20 in the hospital. Raising that child is so unbelievably difficult, and yet they love their daughter and have great joy in their relationship with her. And my friendS who are haunted by their abortions and can't quite shake the guilt and shame and pain and loss. One of them says she is so angry that people told her that a baby was just tissue, like an appendix, and that she believed it.

Like my brother who gave up a baby for adoption, and now wishes with all his heart that he could have a relationship with her. (I do too.) They considered abortion, but rejected it because they both believed the baby to be a living person. And now that he is more mature, he is taking legal and reasonable steps to be available to his daughter if she is interested in finding him. She'll be 16 soon, and I am waiting for the day that she knocks on his door.

Now here's my wish list.

I wish all kids were desired and adored. I hurt for children that are ignored and mistreated, whether I see them at the grocery store or teach them every day in the classroom.

I wish all adults were more responsible, including myself.

I wish there were a way that unwanted pregnancies could end with babies being delivered as soon as they were "viable" outside the womb, followed by delivery to loving families.

I wish all the babies could be born 100% healthy.

I could go on all day...

As for the quality of life idea, well, I don't think that any government is responsible enough to decide that for others. A life that would seem 'unlivable' to me is cherished by the soul who has it. Who gets to decide whether a life is worth living? What if its Yours?

...now I think I'd better make a mad dash for cover...
Don't bury me 'cause I'm not dead yet.
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LessThanZero
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Post by LessThanZero »

Bamboo, THANK YOU!

I will get a 4.0 on this because of you all. I would share that 4.0 equally, but then we would all get .02's or something, and that would hurt the average of the entire board.

Thank you everyone for your viewpoints.

Should I title my paper: "Shit Happens: So let's talk about it."??
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Post by bobster »

Being the good liberal/progressive that I am, I'm definitely in the pro-choice camp, but with some possibly controversial (and typically long-winded) provisos.

I'm not super-crazy about the line of rhetoric about women "having the right to say what happens to their body." Not that I disagree with the statement, of course, It's just that it ignores the fact that we're actually discussing two bodies, which is a big part of why this issue is so complicated. (The other is that, as Ice Nine states, it's a little bit wrong for men to even discuss this in some sense, since we have no true idea of the sacrifice involved in bringing a baby to term.)

But here's the thing, in our society, we do occasionally strive to protect the helpless and there is a point, probably well before birth where that "foetus" becomes something very much like a "human." This is why I actually like the Clinton formulation that abortion should be "safe, legal and rare." Well, 99% percent of the time. There is an exception coming up.

The problem is that most people discussing this matter fall back on religious and/or quasi-mystical definitions of "life" or "humanity." For example, for some people -- such as devout Catholics -- "life begins at conception." Technically, of course, this is absolutely true. But to say that a zygote (the impregnated egg cell) is a "person" is an obvious matter of faith and utterly nonsensical to those of us who don't share that faith.

There is no logical or scientific reason to call a zygote a human. At this stage, it's a single-celled organism with not much more going on biologically than an amoeba or a protozoa, possibly less. (I could be slightly off on my High School biology here, so any experts may feel free to correct me.)

There's absolutely nothing wrong with people, for that reason, deciding that it's immoral to use the morning after pills, for example. Still, it's also completely wrong for them to try to make that a matter of law in a pluralistic society that is largely based on the separation of church (and therefore one hopes church doctrine) from state.

This is especially important in a multicultural society because religions differ greatly on this point. For example, in the religion of my upbringing, Judaism, human life begins at birth. There is very little discussion of pre-born life and the only Jews that I know of who are against abortion are also against contraception and probably male masturbation on the grounds that it "wastes" human life, i.e., sperm cells. (I.e., ultra-Orthodox/Hassidim, etc.) I would guess that if you took a poll of American Jews, it would be about 98% percent or higher pro-choice, for that reason. It's certainly not because we're paragons of rationality all of the time. For proof of that, you could just take another poll about Israel and you'll see plenty of illogic. The Jewish pro-choice stance is actually based on a religious formulation and therefore actually has no more place in determining law than any other religious belief.

Still, I think that there is also a place at which most of us would be able to agree that a embroyo is a person without dragging religion or mysticism into it. Now, of course, an embroyo is definitely "life" all the way through the process, but as a society, we contenance the killing of non-human "life" for even the most frivolous of purposes. (The 100 or so dead clams in my salad last night might feel, for example, like they have given their life for a less than worthy cause.) We also don't worry about removing a dead organ or amputating a diseased limb because some of the cells may still be alive. We recognize that a heart or a leg is not a person, though it is human.

So, the question is, not when does "life" begins but when "human life" begins in the sense of when is an embroyo so close to what we think of as being a human that killing it is no longer acceptable.

I got a lot of these ideas when I was teenager reading Carl Sagan's "The Dragons of Eden," which is about the development of the human mind. Basically, Sagan decided that the parts of the brain which most of us would call human brain (as opposed to the more basic parts of the nervous system, which he labelled "the lizard brain"). So, for Sagan, that point came sometime fairly early in the third trimester. So, he stated, perhaps abortion should be made illegal then, but be totally a matter of choice prior.

While I'm sure biologists and philosophers/ethicists could argue forever about just when the brain really turns "human," I think Sagan was on the right track. I don't think society should neccessarily condone the taking of human life at just any old point pre-birth for any reason at all. Although, in practice, I really doubt many (any?) women go through the trouble of pregnancy for seven months, only to decide to terminate it for the sake of convenience in the eighth. Still, I wouldn't want to happen.

So, if I were made both President and Chief Justice of the Supreme Court and was extremely popular and had great pull with both houses of Congress, I'd make a law that basically made abortion completely and utterly legal -- "abortion on demand" as the pro-lifers call it -- up to the third trimester. After that, I'd make it illegal. However, if there was ANY question of the health -- not neccessarily the life, but the health, which is a crucial distinction -- of the mother, then I'd allow abortions in those cases.

On the other hand, as much as I've thought about this issue as a legal matter, I have no idea what I'd do if I were actually the father in a possible abortion situation.
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A rope leash
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Post by A rope leash »

Excellent stuff there, Bob, and a good note at the end, as well.

I'm sure that in many cases them father either doesn't know or doesn't care. But it is also obvious that a man who impregnates a woman he loves suffers some emotional anguish when the woman chooses to have an abortion. There's plenty of suffering to go around when it comes to fetal temination.

The larger issue on abortion is that it's totally unnecessary due to the fact that birth control is cheap and easy. In fact, I'll go as far to say that it's stupid to get pregnant if you don't want to be.

In fact, I'll let the dog out and go ahead and say that if the human race is to continue, then random sterilization of the entire population should begin immediately. The estimates of world population growth foretell our own doom. We can see it coming, but why don't we have the sense and will to prevent it? It's time we all took responsibilty for all that fucking we're doing, and start taking care of ourselves and our planet.

The Earth is a finite resource. Look at the damage just one person does, especially an industrialzed person. As it is, we are a disease to the Earth.

Maybe there's a topical cream She could use for that rash that is us...but more likely She'll just let us burn ourselves out.
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Post by Boy With A Problem »

College 1984, my girlfriend gets pregnant. She gives me the news, and I say something like, "What are we gonna do?" - Two middle class white kids - 20 years old -in college but still dumb enough to get pregnant (dumb enough to do a lot of dumb things) -

Anyway, she tells me, "I'm getting an abortion." I try to discuss it, but there is no discussion she is getting an abortion. I don't vehemently disagree, but I really would have done whatever she wanted - raise the child, adoption, a discreet and renumerated placement with an established white couple ("They traded in their baby for a Chevrolet") - or abortion.

It was clear to both of us that we wouldn't be staying together much longer, even before she got pregnant.

So she had the abortion. I went with her - it was very clinical, everyone was professional. It was quick, she felt pain - we cried a little bit. Neither of us where the same afterward - we never talked about it much, and I probably haven't mentioned it in at least 15 years.

It was made very clear to me that it was her choice - and I can't all together disagree. I don't feel like I should have a voice in what should and shouldn't be legal on this topic - because ultimately it's a decision that has to be made by the woman.
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Post by El Vez »

I was 18 when I got my girlfriend pregnant. It had been a couple of weeks since I left my hometown of Tuscaloosa, where she was living at that time, to start my college career at Auburn. During a phone conversation she told me that she had to call her roommate to pick her up from school early in the day because she had been throwing up. Then it happened again the next day. We made a few uneasy "morning after" jokes after the second incident but these stopped as she continued to be sick all the time with the exact same thing.

By the next week, I could just about bend steel with my bare hands....I was that tense. The day before she was going to go to the doctor she asked me what I thought we should do if she was in fact pregnant. I immediately answered that she should get an abortion and that I would pay for it. I told her that I had just started college and had all these dreams and that she had already worked so hard to put herself through school that it would be a shame for all of that to be derailed. Then I felt like an incredible asshole and started to back off a bit but she was already adamant that I would only end up hating her and the child for wrecking my life. The next day she phoned to tell me that she was not pregnant. Shortly afterwards, our relationship fell apart. I only learned later on that she had been pregnant and had an abortion so that I could have the freedom to go to college and live whatever life I chose.

I'm not using this personal anecdote to point towards my beliefs on the subject. I read BWAP's post and felt obliged not to let something of that kind stand alone.
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LessThanZero
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Post by LessThanZero »

Again, thank you all so much for sharing these experiences and viewpoints.

This board is a dream-come-true for a college senior writing a general semantics paper, even on a topic as gruesome as this. But if there's one thing I know, it's that my elvis friends are BURSTING with wonderful semantic sentiments.

You've given your input, now I have to stop procrastinating, buckle down, and just organize all of it into a well thought out paper.

I LOVE YOU ALL! :shock: :D :D
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taz
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Post by taz »

How about posting the paper here when your done if you want LTZ? I'm sure we'd all like to read it....of course entirely up to you.
A lot of Christians wear crosses around their necks. Do you think when Jesus comes back he ever wants to see a fuckin' cross? It's kind of like going up to Jackie Onassis with a rifle pendant on.
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Post by Misha »

Hey LTZ,

How's that paper coming?
Where are the strong?

Who are the trusted?
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LessThanZero
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Post by LessThanZero »

Well mish, I'm working tonight all night, and all tomorrow night, so if it gets slow, I'm going to try to really organize all of the info I've gathered so far. I took the WHOLE day off Sunday, so Sunday will be Write-the-Paper Day. I will definitely post it....then everyone can place their bets on what grade you think I'll get! :wink:

And I will dedicate it to elviscostellofans everywhere.
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Mr. Average
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Post by Mr. Average »

There is only one Msster or Life and Death. All of the pseudo-intellectual arguments that sidetrack this axiom are defeated by this simple fact. There are not Two Masters of Life and Death. There are rookies, poseurs, cracked actors, philosophers, etc who are quick to position themselves as true Masters of Life and Death, but there is only One, and only He can render the ultimate judgement.

Life and Death are the projects of God. We can practice them, with free will and earthly impunity, but that pracice will never capture the Mastery of which I speak.

DOn't get mad, or ask me to prove it. I won't, and I can't. I don't need to, as it has been revealed through faith, introspection, and by discarding the earthly trappings of emperical formula intellect that suggests that the only things that are real are those tha can be scientifically substantiated through a scientific method. We are such pea-brains, and I find it humourous that we think that we can outthink and outreason the obvious...that there is ONLY ONE MASTER OF LIFE and DEATH.

I am relatively certain that the foregoing sentiment will NOT make it into your paper.
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Boy With A Problem
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Post by Boy With A Problem »

There is only one Msster or Life and Death
Maybe not.
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Post by so lacklustre »

Mr.Average - I'm too dense to understand most of your post, but are you saying that abortion is okay for atheists?
signed with love and vicious kisses
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