WIWC or TYM?

[Extreme Honey]

Kinda alike, expressing that anger that we find in several EC albums but not the entire theme, he as these 2 albums have it. So which one will it be? The angry-youngy-directy TYM or the angry-matury-metaphoricy WIWC?

Bonus questions for hardcoe ECknow-it-alls: Did the Pre-Trusties treat WIWC like a BY (a "Rock" album they can adapt to) or dismiss it as another "Jumped the shark" record?

My Choice: When I was cruel

[wardo68]

TYM is just below my top 5 EC albums (those being Trust, IB, GH, KOA and B&C). I spent most of the rest of 2002 trying to like WIWC and it never quite took. I decided that I liked the straight rock tracks better than the programmed backings, and that's probably why I like TYM so much.

As for your bonus question, I'm still not sure he's jumped the shark.

[BlueChair]

This Year's Model is a huge part of why Elvis has attained something of a legendary status. When I Was Cruel is good, but definitely a non-essential item.

This Year's Model, by far

[Mr. Average]

Upon release, I immediately related WIWC to a category of interesting but non-essential. An occassional play but of greater importance for historical perspective versus anything immediate.

TYM impact was immediate. the musical landcape at the time was cluttered with new music...new wave, punk, and other all searching to fill a void in edgy, excitable rock and roll.

WIWC was not released in a similar environment. First listens to WIWC occured in a differnt world, and with the strength of a dominating catalog of music behind it. But it ages very well, and I thin it gets better with time. I appreciate it now, today, much, much more than I did when it was first released.

If my record collection was going to be burned by the rioting "French Youth", and I could only take one of the two, there is no contest. But WIWC will be recognized, I think, as a very substantial collection with time. If you haven't given it a spin lately, pull it out and listen ago, just for the sake of argument. It might surprise you. I did me after two years of thinking I really 'knew" that record.

[bambooneedle]

Kinda alike

What a ridiculous statement. Idiotic, even.

[noiseradio]

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[Extreme Honey]

lol no words need be spoken!

[King Hoarse]

I think those two have very little in common but I love them both. TYM in a nostalgic way I guess, because I hardly ever listen to that record sober nowadays. I know the songs by heart and prefer them in more energetic live versions without that (to me) annoying keyboard sound, whereas I put on WIWC quite often. The latter is very much a mood record, of course, and a mood I'm often in, for which not too many other records will do. But I don't think I could muster the enthusiasm for it that made me wear out the grooves on my TYM LP when that still felt fresh.

[alexv]

Comparing WIWC to TYM? Extreme, be forewarned that if you succeed in chatting with our hero, this topic will be a guaranteed way to piss him off.

Anyway, to address your question from an Alexv perspective, WIWC is rowdy rhythm music, with loud guitars (our hero's then current "phase") and non-melodic songs. I rate it to be his worst record. TYM: the birth of the Attractions sound; a record that actually mattered, not just to a cult of EC enthusiasts but to the pop music of its time. There is no comparison. Or maybe there is: like comparing McDonalds to a fine French Restaurant; or like comparing Federer to Henman. You get the picture.

[lostdog]

Um, I would question the need for the existence of this thread in general, based as it is upon an utterly pointless hypothesis - but if it must exist, why is it in the Annex?

[martinfoyle]

Both albums are very much of their time and format. TYM works all the way through and flows perfectly, astonishingly cohesive sound considering the band had only been together a few months. Each side of the LP is brilliantly sequenced.
WIWC is full of great songs that dont gell together. It's perfect for the mp3 player in random mode, and EC has indicated thats what he intended, being a techie geek that was aware of these things back in 2001/2.

[Masterpiece?]

I love threads like this, as they provide a test for the abilities of members to post their gut reactions without being snarky or downright rude.

Well, TYM has its place in history secured, so I'll use the only test I know: right now I have most of WIWC on the majority of my iPod playlists, but not one song from TYM.

So, WIWC wins! Take that!

[Extreme Honey]

Comparing WIWC to TYM? Extreme, be forewarned that if you succeed in chatting with our hero, this topic will be a guaranteed way to piss him off.

Anyway, to address your question from an Alexv perspective, WIWC is rowdy rhythm music, with loud guitars (our hero's then current "phase") and non-melodic songs. I rate it to be his worst record. TYM: the birth of the Attractions sound; a record that actually mattered, not just to a cult of EC enthusiasts but to the pop music of its time. There is no comparison. Or maybe there is: like comparing McDonalds to a fine French Restaurant; or like comparing Federer to Henman. You get the picture.

I don't agree, TYM may be more melodic or rockish or w.e u wish to call it but I think WIWC is a better album simply because it is a much more mature theme and expresses anger a hell of alot more than TYM to me (not to say that anger is what I want to listen to). And I would also disagree with what you said about Elvis's reaction. Elvis thinks rock was a "Phase", so how can he possible esteem TYM better than WIWC?

[alexv]

Extreme, we obviously differ on this, which is fine with me, but since you are trying to address my post, let me see if I can respond to yours.

You seem to be saying that in your view WIWC bests TYM because "it expresses anger a hell of a lot better...to me" (although you note that anger is not all you listen to). Obviously, we all get different things from music, and you can find the anger expressed in WIWC to be better expressed than in TYM, but the real question is whether the albums should be judged on the "anger" theme. EC's work in both albums, and throughout his career is completely misunderstood if the emphasis is on his "anger". EC has always been good at misanthropic, cruel songs, but it's not because he's expressing anger. He's writing songs about many things (some about nothing at all; some about completely contradictory things, some with words that are there only because they sound good when sung). I think you think he's more good at the angry stuff in WIWC because the songs are louder,and the singing harsher, and the lyrics more direct. Not one of those things is an improvement on the more melodic, less mannered and frankly better lyrics of TYM. And I would bet my bottom dollar that EC was no more "angry" when writing WIWC than when he wrote TYM. Bottom line, for me, is that TYM is a classic EC album, no a classic rock and roll album. WIWC, even granting it the greatest indulgence, is not. Some may consider it a "return to form"; a "welcome return to rock and roll roots"; his "best record in years"; "damn good and on my I-Pod in heavy rotation". Accepted. For anyone who knows anything about Ec to conclude that it's as good a record as TYM (or MAIT, or AF, or IB, or GH, or KOA, I'll stop there) is, well, let's just say it's a statement I would find impossible to defend.

On your point about EC's "rock" phase, you misunderstand my meaning. I am not saying that "rock" (a term EC derides, he prefers rock and roll) is a phase to him. What I said was the "loud guitars" was a passing phase during the WIWC era, something I found endlessly amusing coming from the self-described Little Hands of Concrete.

Our boy has a habit of obsessing over different things at different times: during the PFM era the mantra was "arrangements"; every song was introduced with a detailed explanation of the "arrangement". During WIWC, the arrangement theme fell by the wayside to be replaced by detailed explanation of his "guitars", along with riffs on the latest technology. During the Juliet Letters period, with classical on his mind, the key prop was the "libretto" which he held on to preciously as he sang at Town Hall. And with the arrival of TDM, we find him immersed in all things Southern American, a real blues man steeped in Americana, with Lucinda and Emylou as his twin muses. All non-sense in my view, and slightly embarrasing (to me that is).

Anyway, I suspect our differences are generational. As a young man, I found TYM enervating. I am no longer young, and find WIWC loud and boring. You are young, and WIWC is your TYM. I had the young Elvis; you have the mature Elvis. Enjoy WIWC. I'm digging PFM and North like a good fuddy duddy.

[Masterpiece?]

Then I guess I break that mold--I'm an old crank as well, but I find WIWC just as vital as I did TYM when I was young.

Not all of EC's newer stuff compares favorably to "the classics", but I easily place "Monkey to Man" (for example) among his best all-time singles.

BTW, I found North to be okay but a little underdone, but lately I've been listening to When Did I Stop Dreaming a lot...I mean a LOT...

[noiseradio]

I really love TYM, obviously. But I think WIWC is smashing as well. Not nearly as good, to me as TYM, but little in the world is. It will get people all worked up for me to say so, but I would listen to WIWC or Brutal Youth most days before listening to Imperial Bedroom (which I love also). It's just taste. The only time someone's taste seems questionable in this sort of thing is when they think Goodbye Cruel World--as recorded--is among his finest work. That seems grossly uninformed to me. I prefer many of EC's earlier ecords to his middle period. But i also prefer his more recent couple of rowdy rhythm records to several of his 80's records. And I really don't much dig PFM or North (and I hate FTS). Jackson loves Juliet Letters, which I only recently have begun to like most of. I think the Delivery Man is among his best records; others (Gilli comes to mind) found is horrid. So it takes all kinds, and we're all right.

Unless we're talking about Goodbye Cruel World. And then only the haters are right.

[Mr. Average]

Noise:

Have you heard the McPartland/Costello CD? It is alternating interview/song/interview/song. Eight songs. Fantastic vocals...the best I have ever heard pass Costello's vocal cords. And the fact that this is a live radio broadcast captured on CD is even more remarkable.

The somgs are mostly covers of classics, although he does Almost Blue (one of my least favorites in this piano only accompaniment format) and he again covers My Funny Valentine.

Since you are not too fond on North or PFM, I doubt if you would lke this. It isn't R and R. It is, however, an excellent illustration of how Elvis has become a more than credible vocalist and provides substance to his much alluded to diversity. For me, it is analogous tothe Coltrane/Hartman disc that I have spoken of in another thread or three. Coltrane's performance on that recording is subdued, and subservient to the power of Hartmans vocal interp. Similar to what we see here

To be fair, I did not like North or Painted upon first impression. They have really grown on me. That being said, I have never been able to get into the Juliet Letters. Whatever that means...

[noiseradio]

I haven't heard the disc you speak of, but it sounds like it would be worth a listen.

Juliet Letters came out in '91 or '92, right? It took 12 years for me to start liking it. So maybe I'll grow to appreciate PFM and North more in a few years, too.

I will say that of all of those three I liked North more on first listen than the others. I don't keep coming back to it, but it didn't turn me off the way Juliet Letters did. These days, the brashness of Juliet Letters appeals to me a LITTLE. North is still good background music, but it doesn't inspire me much.

I did love Il Sogno right away. Still do. Great record. And I think the fact that he does all of this, even the stuff I don't adore is just more evidence of why he's such a vital artist.

Mr. A, I can't remember if it was you, but someone agreed with me that Delivery Man had some Beatles influences--pronounced ones. I think you and I noticed the "She's Leaving Home" bit on "Nothing Clings Like Ivy." Do you hear any "Baby You're a Rich Man" in"Bedlam?"

[Extreme Honey]

Alexv, I think you hit gold with your last statement. WIWC is my TYM. And while I still believe that WIWC is a much, much (much times 100) better album than TYM, I guess that's the beauty of Elvis Costello, there's a record for anybody (except rappers of course). I'm surprised only me and masterpiece prefer WIWC. However, TYM, as blue said, is crucial to Elvis's legendary status (even though nowadays my generation dosn't really know him).

And I do love Goodbye Cruel World. I think y'alls need to put it in your ipods and give it a good listen.

[noiseradio]

there's a record for anybody (except rappers of course).

I disagree.

"Pills & Soap" was written as a result of EC's being inspired by Grand Master Flash's "The Message." His remix of "Distorted Angel" with Tricky, his remixes on Cruel Smile, and "Spooky Girlfriend" (which is constructed with loops) could easily appeal to a rapper. Just as an EC fan like myself loves good hip hop, it's unreasonably exclusive to assume that a hip hop fan couldn't love EC.

[pophead2k]

I'd add The Bridge I Burned to that list too Noise. While nowhere near being a 'hip hop' tune, the backing track has a samply feel to it and a definite use of loops.

[wardo68]

I'd say, like a lot of WIWC, "Episode Of Blonde" has its roots in hip hop.

And while we're at it, "Pump It Up" is a child of "Subterranean Homesick Blues", which was a child of "Too Much Monkey Business", which could claim to be an ancestor of rap. Which isn't the same as hip hop. Or something.

[noiseradio]

I completely agree with both of you. I'm surprised P. Diddy hasn't bastardized "Pump it Up" already.

[Mr. Average]

Interesting. I haven't drawn the conclusion that Episode of Blonde has "hip=hop" roots. It immediately struck me as an homage to electric folk, Bob Dylan, with a throw back to the implicit but subdued energy of "Watchin' the Detectives".

Noise, I hear many subtle Beatle references in the pop oriented tunes on TDM. I haven't put my thumb on it, though, as to which song. Thanks for the reference, I'll listen for it.

"I might recite a small prayer
(If I ever said them)
I lay down on an iron frame
Found myself in bedlam
I wish that I could take something for drowning out the noise
Wailing echoes down the corridors"

I initially thought that this fragment had a Beatlesque sound, But it doesn't work with "Baby You're a Rich Man". I'll keep listening..

[Who Shot Sam?]

I completely agree with both of you. I'm surprised P. Diddy hasn't bastardized "Pump it Up" already.

Thought I'd read somewhere that a hip-hop artist had used a "Pump It Up" sample. Paging johnfoyle...